MSM Crystals

[Jax]

It's real name is Methylsulfonylmethane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylsulfonylmethane) but who can ever remember that LOL!

David Wolfe swears by it in his book Eating for Beauty (http://www.rawinuk.com/showthread.php?t=110), he states that it helps with pollen and food allergies, arthritis, and topically with scars, rosacea and psoriasis.

The Finchley Clinic website first put me onto MSM as something to help combat Candida (http://www.thefinchleyclinic.co.uk/nojavascript/products/Candida_treatment.htm), I have since retested myself and found that it has subsided. I'm not claiming that MSM was solely at the bottom of this improvement as I've also gone more raw and I've cut out the evil sugar in that time.

In the past I have bought MSM from Total Raw Food (although I can't find it on there at the moment) however haverawcake (http://www.haverawcakeandeatit.co.uk/raw_food_uk/MSM_POWDER_Organic_Raw_Food_HAVE_RAW_CAKE_AND_EAT_ IT_Raw_Food.html) is selling it at a better price anyway with 250g at £4.95 AND she's doing 10% for Raw in UK forum users (sign up for the discount) :597:

The Finchley Clinic also do a large range of MSM products (http://www.thefinchleyclinic.com/shop/msm-c-0_28.html).

For topical uses Raw Gaia do a MSM Beauty Cream (http://www.rawgaia.com/organic-skin-care/moisturisers-creams/msm-beauty-cream.asp) £12.50 for 60ml, a MSM Beauty Spray (http://www.rawgaia.com/organic-skin-care/moisturisers-creams/msm-beauty-spray.asp) £15.00 for 50ml, and also do MSM supplement (http://www.rawgaia.com/organic-skin-care/msm-supplement/msm-225-g.asp) at £15.00 for 225g.

I should just also add that I've found differing doses with different people, the taste is one that may take some time to get used to, so I think David Wolfe's dosage is more practical.

[Jax]

Aha I paid £24.99 for 500g of MSM crystals from Total Raw Food back in March. Total p&p for the order was £4 but I did buy other things so that is higher that it would be for just the MSM.

So haverawcake beats that price for sure ;)

Hmmm I've just found another receipt from Total Raw Food for September 2008 where I paid £6.99 for 100g of MSM crystals! P&P was only £1.75 with a couple of other items.

[Debbie Took]

A contrasting view, from one who believes that such supplements are at best unnecessary and at worse harmful.

Anyone who googles MSM will find millions of words extolling its benefits. However...

some extracts from my August 08 blog article on supplements, that might be of interest:

'White Powders


Some raw fooders rave about MSM - in fact, some even say it gives them a high! But it's not without controversy, and I've seen a forum poster cite it as the direct cause of his mother's health problems.

MSM is sulphur, in the form of a white, crystalline powder. Do we need sulphur? Yes - it helps build collagen (used to bind connective tissue) and maintain healthy joints.

Are raw foodists likely to be deficient in sulphur? The product details supplied by one online supplier include this: 'MSM is destroyed by cooking.' OK - not a problem for raw foodists then. We also read that MSM is deficient in foods grown 'in greenhouses or through irrigation'. My googling reveals that sulphur is present in the following foods (amongst others): avocado, blueberries, broccoli, cabbage, carrots, cherries, coconut, garlic, grapes, grains, nuts, seeds, onions, pulses, pak choi, parsley, red peppers, tomatoes, and green leafy veg generally (eg kale, lettuce, watercress). Well, I suppose some of these may be grown in greenhouses or through irrigation, but can't see that in general there will be a problem. (And if you have any patch of land, it's very easy to grow lettuces).

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_YI6uEJs47AE/SLuRCWetSDI/AAAAAAAAAR0/NYtK-CooakY/s200/Lettuce+buttercrunch.jpgMike Benton: 'Almost all diets contain adequate amounts of this mineral.' VitaminsDiary.com: 'A diet sufficient in protein is generally considered to be adequate in sulphur.'


I can't see that there is any reason to think that the average raw foodist isn't getting all the sulphur their bodies need in their food. Surely the raw foodist supplementing with MSM would likely be taking sulphur in excess of the body's requirements, and of course in an isolated form. And sulphur is a substance (along with phosphorus, chlorine, sulfur and silicon) which, when metabolised, forms acids in the body. So is it really sensible to take sulphur in isolation from the (alkalising) foods it is found in naturally?'

and...

'Dr Doug Graham: '...the marketers neglect to mention that too much of that nutrient is harmful in a variety of ways, not the least of which is the inevitable imbalances that result when we consume supplements of any kind. Most supplements are concentrated from plant foods, and despite our American 'more is better' mindset, the body does not appreciate these unnatural concentrates and has to work to expel them similarly to the way it has to eliminate toxic residue from cooked foods...Like an amateur barber who finds himself trimming each side of the hair to make things 'even' until his client is bald, a person who supplements with single nutrients (or any formulation or combination of extracted nutrients) inevitably creates greater and more confounding imbalances, whether or not the cause and effect are discernible in the short term.'

and...

'WHY A SUPPLEMENT MIGHT APPEAR TO WORK

Firstly of course - could be the 'placebo effect'. Perhaps we're feeling a bit 'down', physically and/or psychologically (most likely for some reason unconnected with diet), we're persuaded by a supplement manufacturer's claims, we spend £70 (and sure want to feel that's justified!), we feel excited at taking something that's a buzz word on the raw food forums, we start taking it, we feel a bit better (which could be due to all sorts of reasons), we attribute those good feelings to the supplement, we focus on those good feelings, which in turn create other good feelings, and...we're sold!

We may see a cessation of certain 'symptoms'. Acne is one example of a body's trying to clean up by eliminating toxins via the skin. If we then ingest an excess of certain nutrients via a supplement, the body may then have to divert energies from house-cleaning to eliminating the excess, so...for a while the acne might appear to clear up! So, sadly, the supplement works like a pharmaceutical drug - suppressing symptoms, but doing nothing to address the underlying cause.

We may even experience euphoria - a 'high' from a supplement. Some believe that substances that have been extracted from their naturally occurring form, or contain nutrients in too high a dose for our bodies, are actually toxic, and that when the body senses toxic matter it will certainly move to an 'all systems go' state, but as preparation for elimination, which results in a stimulant effect. A stimulant effect is the calling card of many poisons - caffeine, nicotine etc. And of course we can then get used to this stimulating effect and miss it when it isn't there, resulting in a sink to a lower level of well-being that accompanies any drug withdrawal.

So - many people are quick to link good feelings to the supplement, whether these are actually due to something else in their lives, or whether they're due to the body's efforts to eliminate. Sooner or later they'll have some 'down' days again. Will they link these 'down' days to the supplement as well? As that would be fair, wouldn't it? Well, no they don't and one reason is that it's somewhat uncomfortable to entertain the thought that we parted with a lot of money for nothing. If they're 'sold on supplements', they may decide they need a higher dose. But, more likely, they'll wonder if they've got some other kind of 'deficiency' and go back to the site selling them for another 'wondercure'.

Some people say that when they take certain supplements they feel less hungry afterwards. They interpret this as a good thing and the supplement manufacturers tell us that this is because their powders are so 'nutrient-dense'. But the 'Natural Hygiene' view is that the body will shut down appetite when it has some serious work to do, ie eliminate a toxic invader. Again, this is why cigarettes and coffee can depress appetite and why, when we are unwell, and the body is involved in eliminative processes (eg via sneezing, sweating etc) we do not feel like food.

****

MSM may well achieve a cessation of certain 'symptoms', but the symptoms ARE the cure, ie a manifestation of detoxing. If those symptoms are suppressed (by the body's having to divert energy to coping with a new toxic invader!), then toxins will continue to build up...

So, sorry to be the party pooper here! Just my view...(and that of many others in the field of natural health).

The full article can be found here:

http://debbietookrawforlife.blogspot.com/2008/08/anti-supplements-why.html

Love

Debbie Took
www.rawforlife.co.uk (http://www.rawforlife.co.uk)

[karen @rawchocolateheaven]

Well said Ms Took xx

Adding to the above in the transition from cooked/processed/poison to high raw, supplements do have a place.
Partly in order to reach saturation point of all needed (depleted) minerals. To force the body into excreting toxins we have to convince it that we are not starving, a situation that it has been living in for a long time. A diet poor in nutrients will be starving the body any processed (cooked food) will starve the body of essential minerals, vitamins, and eventually life.
You can fast and the body will eventually begin a toxic dump, or you can choose a less drastic albeit slower method of supplementation.
Once you have passed 7 years on a very high raw diet the full bone remineralisation and cellular regeneration will have taken place and during this time supplements should be fazed out.
It is best to seek the advice of your chosen health care practitioner.
As a recovering alcoholic and other more traumatic addictions I have found MSM immensly beneficial but in conjunction with Aulterra and the Etheriums. I agree that my route to health has been very different than most.
With all things do your homework.
True superfoods are such things as Wheatgrass, E3 Live, Chlorella & Spirulina. These are the true healers and should be taken as such.

hope this has complimented the above post

love & light
Karen

[Jax]

So, sorry to be the party pooper here! Just my view...(and that of many others in the field of natural health).

No no no..................do not apologise! I love good debates and love to learn the pros and cons of things, how else could we learn ;) My main impetus for posting about it is the candida fight, do you have any views on that aspect at all?? The other reason was that it was a subject that came up at Rian's talk in Winchester, and I wanted to let people know about prices etc.

[Debbie Took]

Hi Jax

Candida - as you'll gather from my previous post, I'd credit raw food for the improvement in your candida. Candida, as you know, is a huge area...the only contribution I'd make at this stage is to say that the 'spit' test is very unreliable. Having said that, I had positive (and negative) results from that test for candida in my first few months of raw. The last one was negative - on a high fruit diet.

Dr Doug Graham on candida (BTW I am not '80/10/10' - just 'high-fruit'):


'The candida issue is riddled with more misinformation than perhaps any other area in health care. It requires a bit of unraveling to make sense of the true candida picture, as there is so much that needs to be unlearned.

Candida is a form of yeast, an organism that naturally occurs in human blood. It is supposed to be there. This microbe consumes sugar for its food. As there is always sugar in the blood (when diabetics check their sugar levels, they are actually monitoring the amount of sugar in the blood), there is always food for the candida organism.

Candida eats Excess Blood Sugar

The size or 'population' of the candida colony in the blood is directly determined by its food supply. If blood-sugar levels are always at a normal level, so is the size of the candida colony that lives in the blood. When the sugar we eat leaves the blood to be distributed and used by the cells of the body, any excess yeast quickly dies off, as it is supposed to.

Should blood-sugar levels rise, however, the candida organisms multiply rapidly ('bloom') as they consume the excess sugar. Once they have done so and blood-sugar levels come back down to normal, so does the number of candida microbes. This ebb and flow happens as a normal part of human physiology and causes no health problems or uncomfortable symptoms.

If fat levels stay chronically elevated due to a fat-rich diet, sugar remains in the bloodstream and feeds the large candida colonies instead of feeding the 18 trillion cells of the body. Starved for fuel, these cells can no longer metabolize energy. You become tired, and feel rundown.

[note from me - what Doug means by a 'fat-rich' diet is, basically, any diet that is not vegan, and any vegan diet that has more than 10% calories as fat - this would equate to anything more than a small handful of nuts or half (not whole :-)) an avocado a day. Most people who think they follow a low-fat diet are following a high- fat diet as defined by Dr D)

It is important to understand the implications of a rise in the blood-sugar level. If the body is not able to reestablish normal blood-sugar levels, a dangerous situation exists. The only mechanism that remains for bringing the blood sugar back down is the candida.

The candida microbe in our blood is actually a life-saving organism, one that we do not ever want to eradicate. It functions as another back-up system - a safety valve that helps to bring the blood-sugar level back down to normal in the event that the pancreas and the adrenals fail at doing so.

Causing Our Own Candida

As I have described, most people create the conditions that cause pancreatic and adrenal fatigue constantly, throughout the day and at every meal. It is therefore no surprise that candida issues plague people until they actually change their lifestyle habits. Outbreaks of candida are your wakeup call - a warning that your system is rapidly approaching diabetes, and that you would do well to drastically curtail your fat consumption or facedire health consequences.

Once again, the standard advice from the health community, traditional or alternative, tends to be seriously off base. Comprehending only symptomology and not the underlying fat-based cause, they tell us to avoid all sugar, including fruit. But fruit consumption did not cause the candida problem, and avoiding it will not address the real issue.

Granted, once you have gotten yourself into the candida quandary by overconsuming fat, eating sweet-tasting fruits may seem to exacerbate your problem. But eliminating fruit will not remove the cause of your problem, just the symptoms. In the presence of too much fat in the blood, even a small amount of sugar, from any source, can result in abnormally high blood-sugar levels. Furthermore, to the extent that conscious attempts to lower blood sugar succeed, you feel tired. Trying to eliminate candida by controlling a blood sugar problem inevitably fails, which is why we feel thousands of people battling candida for years without lasting success.

Because all carbohydrate, fat andn protein that we eat is converted to simple sugar (glucose) if it is to be used by the cells for fuel, the way out of this cycle is not to eat less sugar, but to consume less fat. When fat levels drop, the sugar starts to get processed and distributed again, and the yeast levels drop because there is no longer excess sugar available for it to eat.

[me again - he's basically saying that the fat in the blood prevents the sugar from getting to the cells. Thus it 'backs up' in the blood.]

The candida microbe is extremely short-lived. If folks suffering from candida would simply follow a low-fat diet, most of them would find that their candida issues were completely gone in a matter of just a few days. Of course, they may still have the underlying pancreatic and adrenal fatigue issues to resolve. Health comes only from healthful living.'